njyd 发表于 2017-3-20 08:43
接受 @冰蚁的意见，用人均每天摄入的热量计，还是2004年到2013年十年的平均，朝鲜是2120.7大卡，印度是23 ...
我大概扫了一下那个数据表，我觉得各类食物应该看四项：产量，进口，出口，食物供应平均（热量或者重量）。北棒的产量数据94年后基本都是下降的，严重依赖进口。金日成时代粮食还能出口，自金正日时代基本就进口了。你把那四项归一化，然后画几张横轴是时间，纵轴是百分比的图表（各类食物，甚至可以细分），可以看得更清楚一点。这个太花时间了。你来完成吧。
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njyd 发表于 2017-3-20 22:15
下面是印度1961年到2013年奶酪的年总产量。
Country Element Item Year Unit Value
印度人口里面素食比例很高，奶酪不应该是常见食品。
njyd 发表于 2017-3-20 02:13
至少没人在意。
印度多数人口一天只吃一顿饭算是常识了吧。多少关心点这个问题的都应该知道这个。也是一个挨饿人口比例很高的国家。
冰蚁 发表于 2017-3-20 22:19
我大概扫了一下那个数据表，我觉得各类食物应该看四项：产量，进口，出口，食物供应平均（热量或者重量） ...
我扒的是供应量，应该是包括了生产进口和援助。
各国饮食习惯不同，用热量应该准一些。不过在非特殊饮食习惯的国家中，肉类消费应该反应了这个国家的饮食质量高低。
橡树村 发表于 2017-3-20 22:26
印度人口里面素食比例很高，奶酪不应该是常见食品。
印度的牛奶（也许是所有奶）的消费量相当高，远高于世界平均水平。
不过此网站的世界平均水平不知是按总人口算的还是各国平均的。
@冰蚁
同一个库中中印肉类总供应量：
China, mainland Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1961 tonnes 2196383.76
China, mainland Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1962 tonnes 2666923.96
China, mainland Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1963 tonnes 4243045.97
China, mainland Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1964 tonnes 5438556.37
China, mainland Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1965 tonnes 6169045.83
China, mainland Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1966 tonnes 6676506.89
China, mainland Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1967 tonnes 7094880.43
China, mainland Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1968 tonnes 7024276.57
China, mainland Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1969 tonnes 6894879.85
China, mainland Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1970 tonnes 6845543.87
China, mainland Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1971 tonnes 7799951.39
China, mainland Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1972 tonnes 8598033.21
China, mainland Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1973 tonnes 8675857.81
China, mainland Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1974 tonnes 8808815.89
China, mainland Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1975 tonnes 9059738.33
China, mainland Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1976 tonnes 9011836.71
China, mainland Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1977 tonnes 9089557.31
China, mainland Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1978 tonnes 9876431.22
China, mainland Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1979 tonnes 1.19E+07
China, mainland Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1980 tonnes 1.34E+07
China, mainland Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1981 tonnes 1.40E+07
China, mainland Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1982 tonnes 1.49E+07
China, mainland Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1983 tonnes 1.55E+07
China, mainland Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1984 tonnes 1.69E+07
China, mainland Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1985 tonnes 1.91E+07
China, mainland Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1986 tonnes 2.02E+07
China, mainland Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1987 tonnes 2.21E+07
China, mainland Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1988 tonnes 2.45E+07
China, mainland Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1989 tonnes 2.58E+07
China, mainland Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1990 tonnes 2.76E+07
China, mainland Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1991 tonnes 3.01E+07
China, mainland Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1992 tonnes 3.30E+07
China, mainland Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1993 tonnes 3.60E+07
China, mainland Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1994 tonnes 3.93E+07
China, mainland Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1995 tonnes 4.25E+07
China, mainland Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1996 tonnes 4.32E+07
China, mainland Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1997 tonnes 4.66E+07
China, mainland Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1998 tonnes 5.05E+07
China, mainland Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1999 tonnes 5.27E+07
China, mainland Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 2000 tonnes 5.63E+07
China, mainland Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 2001 tonnes 5.64E+07
China, mainland Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 2002 tonnes 5.78E+07
China, mainland Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 2003 tonnes 6.08E+07
China, mainland Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 2004 tonnes 6.12E+07
China, mainland Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 2005 tonnes 6.39E+07
China, mainland Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 2006 tonnes 6.63E+07
China, mainland Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 2007 tonnes 6.86E+07
China, mainland Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 2008 tonnes 7.21E+07
China, mainland Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 2009 tonnes 7.49E+07
China, mainland Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 2010 tonnes 7.73E+07
China, mainland Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 2011 tonnes 7.78E+07
China, mainland Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 2012 tonnes 8.21E+07
China, mainland Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 2013 tonnes 8.46E+07
India Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1961 tonnes 1694670.48
India Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1962 tonnes 1737046.2
India Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1963 tonnes 1754911.79
India Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1964 tonnes 1788515.99
India Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1965 tonnes 1817105.62
India Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1966 tonnes 1845952.92
India Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1967 tonnes 1894031.58
India Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1968 tonnes 1942212.04
India Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1969 tonnes 1969449.45
India Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1970 tonnes 2011362.76
India Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1971 tonnes 2067949.29
India Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1972 tonnes 2093295.82
India Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1973 tonnes 2140142.99
India Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1974 tonnes 2194504.52
India Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1975 tonnes 2244514.6
India Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1976 tonnes 2292995.91
India Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1977 tonnes 2338559.29
India Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1978 tonnes 2401873.55
India Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1979 tonnes 2476580.66
India Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1980 tonnes 2573317.51
India Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1981 tonnes 2654292.48
India Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1982 tonnes 2877502.36
India Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1983 tonnes 2928748.87
India Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1984 tonnes 2979814.31
India Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1985 tonnes 3099021.26
India Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1986 tonnes 3166691.23
India Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1987 tonnes 3363935.92
India Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1988 tonnes 3418384.15
India Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1989 tonnes 3489820.41
India Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1990 tonnes 3583536.48
India Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1991 tonnes 3747453.1
India Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1992 tonnes 3826143.93
India Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1993 tonnes 3893249.99
India Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1994 tonnes 3920561.26
India Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1995 tonnes 3921429.35
India Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1996 tonnes 3967808.3
India Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1997 tonnes 3981718.69
India Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1998 tonnes 4088891.25
India Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 1999 tonnes 4154958.26
India Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 2000 tonnes 4142165.47
India Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 2001 tonnes 4266119.35
India Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 2002 tonnes 4386582.3
India Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 2003 tonnes 4459205.78
India Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 2004 tonnes 4644511.26
India Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 2005 tonnes 4641124.23
India Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 2006 tonnes 4756193.33
India Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 2007 tonnes 5056031.76
India Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 2008 tonnes 5179772.42
India Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 2009 tonnes 5297750.71
India Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 2010 tonnes 5281632.48
India Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 2011 tonnes 5045939.82
India Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 2012 tonnes 5086683.77
India Food supply quantity (tonnes) Meat 2013 tonnes 4619429.98
拿里面2013年的数，中国肉类总供应量为84600000吨，人均年供应量按14亿算有60公斤。
印度4619429.98吨，按10亿人算4. 6公斤.
说明单位是吨不是千吨，
与中国的亲身经历相比比较有感受。
中国大陆1961年到2013年食品热量供应。
China, mainland Food supply (kcal/capita/day) Grand Total 1961 kcal/capita/day 1415
China, mainland Food supply (kcal/capita/day) Grand Total 1962 kcal/capita/day 1526
China, mainland Food supply (kcal/capita/day) Grand Total 1963 kcal/capita/day 1594
China, mainland Food supply (kcal/capita/day) Grand Total 1964 kcal/capita/day 1666
China, mainland Food supply (kcal/capita/day) Grand Total 1965 kcal/capita/day 1797
China, mainland Food supply (kcal/capita/day) Grand Total 1966 kcal/capita/day 1865
China, mainland Food supply (kcal/capita/day) Grand Total 1967 kcal/capita/day 1817
China, mainland Food supply (kcal/capita/day) Grand Total 1968 kcal/capita/day 1758
China, mainland Food supply (kcal/capita/day) Grand Total 1969 kcal/capita/day 1731
China, mainland Food supply (kcal/capita/day) Grand Total 1970 kcal/capita/day 1840
China, mainland Food supply (kcal/capita/day) Grand Total 1971 kcal/capita/day 1845
China, mainland Food supply (kcal/capita/day) Grand Total 1972 kcal/capita/day 1828
China, mainland Food supply (kcal/capita/day) Grand Total 1973 kcal/capita/day 1897
China, mainland Food supply (kcal/capita/day) Grand Total 1974 kcal/capita/day 1893
China, mainland Food supply (kcal/capita/day) Grand Total 1975 kcal/capita/day 1909
China, mainland Food supply (kcal/capita/day) Grand Total 1976 kcal/capita/day 1875
China, mainland Food supply (kcal/capita/day) Grand Total 1977 kcal/capita/day 1914
China, mainland Food supply (kcal/capita/day) Grand Total 1978 kcal/capita/day 2062
China, mainland Food supply (kcal/capita/day) Grand Total 1979 kcal/capita/day 2077
China, mainland Food supply (kcal/capita/day) Grand Total 1980 kcal/capita/day 2146
China, mainland Food supply (kcal/capita/day) Grand Total 1981 kcal/capita/day 2164
China, mainland Food supply (kcal/capita/day) Grand Total 1982 kcal/capita/day 2328
China, mainland Food supply (kcal/capita/day) Grand Total 1983 kcal/capita/day 2399
China, mainland Food supply (kcal/capita/day) Grand Total 1984 kcal/capita/day 2433
China, mainland Food supply (kcal/capita/day) Grand Total 1985 kcal/capita/day 2429
China, mainland Food supply (kcal/capita/day) Grand Total 1986 kcal/capita/day 2424
China, mainland Food supply (kcal/capita/day) Grand Total 1987 kcal/capita/day 2439
China, mainland Food supply (kcal/capita/day) Grand Total 1988 kcal/capita/day 2416
China, mainland Food supply (kcal/capita/day) Grand Total 1989 kcal/capita/day 2404
China, mainland Food supply (kcal/capita/day) Grand Total 1990 kcal/capita/day 2504
China, mainland Food supply (kcal/capita/day) Grand Total 1991 kcal/capita/day 2431
China, mainland Food supply (kcal/capita/day) Grand Total 1992 kcal/capita/day 2456
China, mainland Food supply (kcal/capita/day) Grand Total 1993 kcal/capita/day 2538
China, mainland Food supply (kcal/capita/day) Grand Total 1994 kcal/capita/day 2604
China, mainland Food supply (kcal/capita/day) Grand Total 1995 kcal/capita/day 2691
China, mainland Food supply (kcal/capita/day) Grand Total 1996 kcal/capita/day 2695
China, mainland Food supply (kcal/capita/day) Grand Total 1997 kcal/capita/day 2725
China, mainland Food supply (kcal/capita/day) Grand Total 1998 kcal/capita/day 2770
China, mainland Food supply (kcal/capita/day) Grand Total 1999 kcal/capita/day 2763
China, mainland Food supply (kcal/capita/day) Grand Total 2000 kcal/capita/day 2808
China, mainland Food supply (kcal/capita/day) Grand Total 2001 kcal/capita/day 2816
China, mainland Food supply (kcal/capita/day) Grand Total 2002 kcal/capita/day 2832
China, mainland Food supply (kcal/capita/day) Grand Total 2003 kcal/capita/day 2833
China, mainland Food supply (kcal/capita/day) Grand Total 2004 kcal/capita/day 2857
China, mainland Food supply (kcal/capita/day) Grand Total 2005 kcal/capita/day 2879
China, mainland Food supply (kcal/capita/day) Grand Total 2006 kcal/capita/day 2883
China, mainland Food supply (kcal/capita/day) Grand Total 2007 kcal/capita/day 2919
China, mainland Food supply (kcal/capita/day) Grand Total 2008 kcal/capita/day 2977
China, mainland Food supply (kcal/capita/day) Grand Total 2009 kcal/capita/day 2994
China, mainland Food supply (kcal/capita/day) Grand Total 2010 kcal/capita/day 3044
China, mainland Food supply (kcal/capita/day) Grand Total 2011 kcal/capita/day 3081
China, mainland Food supply (kcal/capita/day) Grand Total 2012 kcal/capita/day 3100
China, mainland Food supply (kcal/capita/day) Grand Total 2013 kcal/capita/day 3108
按这组数据，朝鲜近十年的食品热量供应相当于中国上世纪七十年代末的水平。
在那些年，副食供应还很差，但粮食已经能保证大部分人不饿肚子了。
其实，考虑饿肚子这件事情的话，说得还真不是食品总量够不够的问题，而是食品的分配问题。所以只看总体数据看不出太多东西来。
比如南非的人均肉食消费量非常高，但是每天晚上饿肚子睡觉的人口比例也不很低。
njyd 发表于 2017-3-20 22:15
下面是印度1961年到2013年奶酪的年总产量。
Country Element Item Year Unit Value
印度有自己的奶酪，paneer，叫奶豆腐更合适，跟豆浆做豆腐的过程一模一样。把奶烧开，用醋、柠檬或者隔夜的酸浆水点一下，沉淀之后用布过滤，压实之后就成了奶豆腐。滤过的浆水放一晚变酸就可以接着点豆腐，其实里面还有很多溶于水的乳清蛋白，健身吃的蛋白粉就是从这里头弄出来的。在欧洲这算是cottage cheese（农家奶酪），没有经过发酵过程，不算是通常意义上的奶酪。
这种奶豆腐和欧式奶酪的最大区别在于，它遇热不化，所以用来炒菜不会变成糊糊。当然因为没有经过低温发酵和陈化，也没有什么特殊风味，和豆腐从外观到口感都十分接近。
我觉得中国人要想提高牛奶摄入量，这种奶豆腐是最适合的，跟中餐非常搭配。但这东西也有掺杂使假，加拿大沃尔玛超市里卖两种品牌的奶豆腐，纯的那种就比较松散，紧实的那种里面放了木薯淀粉，蛋白质比例要低一些。
你说的奶酪应该是欧式奶酪，对印度人来说也是外来货，生产和销售量都很低，和冰激凌之类合在一起，才占到印度奶制品消费量的1%，估计也主要是集中在西方化的大城市人群。关键一点，是不适合当地的炎热气候。印度的酥油、奶豆腐、炼乳等大宗奶制品，都有一个煮沸的过程，而且都能现做现吃，不会放坏。唯一不需要煮沸的就是酸奶，在印度的炎热天气下，当天也能成品，除了加糖做成甜品，本身就是很好的酸味剂。
http://www.efeedlink.com/cps/images/2015/january/ht150114-3.gif
这是2015年的印度奶制品消费饼图，可以看到奶豆腐（paneer）是单列的，西式奶酪（cheese）根本就没有列出来。
石工 发表于 2017-3-21 03:07
印度有自己的奶酪，paneer，叫奶豆腐更合适，跟豆浆做豆腐的过程一模一样。把奶烧开，用醋、柠檬或者隔夜 ...
paneer挺好吃的~~
猫元帅 发表于 2017-3-20 09:51
我记得朝鲜的粮食似乎不足以自给，或者是勉强自给。当年是靠着经互会出口矿产进口粮食。后来经互会倒了，燃 ...
可以自给，我查八十年代中国的进出口数据时，中国卖沙特大杀器那年北棒子还有余力对中国出口粮食。
石工 发表于 2017-3-21 03:07
印度有自己的奶酪，paneer，叫奶豆腐更合适，跟豆浆做豆腐的过程一模一样。把奶烧开，用醋、柠檬或者隔夜 ...
看来印度把这些都统计在“奶”里面了。
还有一点大家都没有提到，就是热量消耗的速度，处在温带的朝鲜比较冷，人需要摄入更多的食物才能保持体温，我当年去德国就有这个感觉，明明中午吃的比在新加坡多，可是下午四点就开始饿了，因为热量消耗的快；
印度是热带国家，很多人一天吃一顿饭也活得下去，而在朝鲜你一天吃一顿饭试试？不被饿死也被冻死了。
橡树村 发表于 2017-3-21 01:56
其实，考虑饿肚子这件事情的话，说得还真不是食品总量够不够的问题，而是食品的分配问题。所以只看总体数据 ...
村长的意思是，朱门酒肉臭，路有冻死骨！
朝鲜的农业可以承包给中国的建设兵团。他们人可以做农工。平整的地方搞机械化种植，山地搞经济作物。用经济作物出口换粮食，应该足够养活朝鲜人。
凡卡 发表于 2017-3-21 19:22
还有一点大家都没有提到，就是热量消耗的速度，处在温带的朝鲜比较冷，人需要摄入更多的食物才能保持体温， ...
是的，是的，寒冷地区需要摄入更多的油脂和肉类才容易生存，觉得他们就搞养鸡场，每人每天保证一个鸡蛋。营养状况就会大大改善。
朝鲜抱着金饭碗挨饿，农田，山林，种养结合，出口上好的山猪肉，换普通猪肉，海洋养殖，他们就应该正规的农业规划设计院好好规划一下，然后引入兵团去开发，他们的人做农工，几年下来粮食吃不完。
猫元帅 发表于 2017-3-19 20:51
我记得朝鲜的粮食似乎不足以自给，或者是勉强自给。当年是靠着经互会出口矿产进口粮食。后来经互会倒了，燃 ...
古巴还是不错的，旅游业很好，而且意识形态方面管的挺松，比天朝还松。近几年美古关系明显变好，卡斯特罗死了之后，全面恢复关系也是指日可待。以古巴的基础和庞大的居美古巴人社团，古巴经济起步将会是很快的
山远空寒 发表于 2017-3-21 21:20
村长的意思是，朱门酒肉臭，路有冻死骨！
朝鲜的农业可以承包给中国的建设兵团。他们人可以做农工。平整 ...
朝鲜农业的机械化程度还是不错的，所以八十年代的时候朝鲜没有饥荒。
但是缺少燃油，缺少化肥。
所以苏联解体经互会结束之后，朝鲜的农业就开始走下坡路了。
冰蚁 发表于 2017-3-20 03:03
数据里还有就是每人每天的热量值（同样的 wheat and products)，印度目前已经到达500千卡左右。北棒现在勉 ...
拜托了，我现在每天的摄入也就才1600左右。
皇家骑警总监 发表于 2017-3-20 10:19
牛奶是个好东西，东亚人喝的少，过去是因为条件不好，但现在条件好了，很多人因为饮食习惯还是不爱喝，即使 ...
牛奶也就是个补钙，就能量而言全脂奶如果要提供1600卡的话，得喝上将近4升。
njyd 发表于 2017-3-20 22:15
下面是印度1961年到2013年奶酪的年总产量。
Country Element Item Year Unit Value
这个产量的变化也太夸张了96年是0，过了十年就变成11690.再过5年又变成836.