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[科研心得] 近代自然科学禀性探讨(上)(修改稿加上前言)

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    擦汗
    2019-6-16 23:34
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    [LV.10]大乘

    楼主
    发表于 2013-9-21 02:29:13 | 显示全部楼层
    TopGun 发表于 2013-9-20 07:03
    ' P8 R+ @" r8 o& R/ D1 Z我非常希望多看到类似这样的探讨。6 D7 @! q2 M0 Y) x

    6 O5 n% P) _3 q# j  o- r关于宗教,我觉得其实不同的人看宗教二字、在不同的地方出现宗教二字, ...
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    宗教这个翻译法已经脱离了佛教原本的“宗”和“教”了。所以也不用纠结在上面了。7 S& ?1 b7 O* {; p2 I- {
    英语里的religion 的含义是超过中文的“宗教”概念的。英语里说 a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith 也叫religion。  v; M! a' z- ?! d6 p/ G2 E, ^

    # j/ Y9 i# O5 ^比如: Hockey is a religion in Canada.  土共的各种主义和思想也都是religion。这里religion 翻成宗教就不合适了。
  • TA的每日心情
    擦汗
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    [LV.10]大乘

    沙发
    发表于 2013-9-21 02:46:54 | 显示全部楼层
    本帖最后由 冰蚁 于 2013-9-20 14:03 编辑
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    不爱吱声 发表于 2013-9-19 18:00
    % B7 |2 }7 q# K3 I: ?* f8 O0 p给这篇文章挑点刺,有点吹毛求疵了:

    & o8 K& N5 _6 _) {8 B' s% P3 m: z9 S' x0 e6 e1 k3 r) {/ d
    理性认识公约数,我猜大概是想说其它唯物的,基于分类,逻辑上的认识事物的能力吧。也可以从理性认识的反义词——感性认识反过来理解。这样的认识可能会得到一些唯象的理论,经验公式之类的东西,但不是科学规律。我想大概是这个意思。最明显的一个例子是医学。医学在分类上总体其实不算科学。因为医生的治疗长期以来更多地凭借经验。所以现在要搞出一个“循证医学”。
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    那句自然科学承认绝对真理的存在性 大概是想说自然科学规律(相对真理)是对最终绝对真理的不断逼近。所以也不算矛盾。不过这都是哲学上的东西。( y+ Q6 N) O2 n" v/ o

    . S" u  K- o5 w, V  n) H脑科学里,应该用物质和意识。意识上的研究一直是脑研究里的分支吧。
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    最后爱因斯坦的那句话,没看到英文的上下文,不好说。直觉上爱因斯坦的话里的 religion 不应该翻成宗教,见我楼上楼下的两个帖子。
  • TA的每日心情
    擦汗
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    [LV.10]大乘

    板凳
    发表于 2013-9-21 02:49:14 | 显示全部楼层
    本帖最后由 冰蚁 于 2013-9-20 13:52 编辑   D! |; ~: f, A$ N: r, i& [% A
    水风 发表于 2013-9-20 13:41 9 J' g0 D0 V( K( @" }2 L, [) ^( {
    Religion is an organized collection of beliefs, cultural systems, and world views that relate huma ...

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    基础意义是有supernatural,但广义上可以没有supernatural。
    1 l9 @6 f& k' ^1 `! g5 `4 g# U- l/ M$ c3 d) f9 m/ I
    wiki 里除了你摘的一段,下面还有具体的讨论。
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    There are numerous definitions of religion and only a few are stated here. The typical dictionary definition of religion refers to a "belief in, or the worship of, a god or gods"[22] or the "service and worship of God or the supernatural".[23] However, writers and scholars have expanded upon the "belief in god" definitions as insufficient to capture the diversity of religious thought and experience.; j* i, n! V, i3 o

    : i' Q1 V" P; FEdward Burnett Tylor defined religion as "the belief in spiritual beings".[24] He argued, back in 1871, that narrowing the definition to mean the belief in a supreme deity or judgment after death or idolatry and so on, would exclude many peoples from the category of religious, and thus "has the fault of identifying religion rather with particular developments than with the deeper motive which underlies them". He also argued that the belief in spiritual beings exists in all known societies.: L( q7 C% t' n' N

    ; d2 M' l6 R4 O, A! h, i. h' TThe anthropologist Clifford Geertz defined religion as a "system of symbols which acts to establish powerful, pervasive, and long-lasting moods and motivations in men by formulating conceptions of a general order of existence and clothing these conceptions with such an aura of factuality that the moods and motivations seem uniquely realistic.[25] Alluding perhaps to Tylor's "deeper motive", Geertz remarked that "we have very little idea of how, in empirical terms, this particular miracle is accomplished. We just know that it is done, annually, weekly, daily, for some people almost hourly; and we have an enormous ethnographic literature to demonstrate it".[26] The theologian Antoine Vergote also emphasized the "cultural reality" of religion, which he defined as "the entirety of the linguistic expressions, emotions and, actions and signs that refer to a supernatural being or supernatural beings"; he took the term "supernatural" simply to mean whatever transcends the powers of nature or human agency.[27]
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    ( _4 D: m# C( }; EThe sociologist Durkheim, in his seminal book The Elementary Forms of the Religious Life, defined religion as a "unified system of beliefs and practices relative to sacred things".[28] By sacred things he meant things "set apart and forbidden—beliefs and practices which unite into one single moral community called a Church, all those who adhere to them". Sacred things are not, however, limited to gods or spirits.[note 2] On the contrary, a sacred thing can be "a rock, a tree, a spring, a pebble, a piece of wood, a house, in a word, anything can be sacred".[29] Religious beliefs, myths, dogmas and legends are the representations that express the nature of these sacred things, and the virtues and powers which are attributed to them.[30]
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    , \' S8 z& E: Z/ U% @In his book ‪The Varieties of Religious Experience‬, the psychologist William James defined religion as "the feelings, acts, and experiences of individual men in their solitude, so far as they apprehend themselves to stand in relation to whatever they may consider the divine".[31] By the term "divine" James meant "any object that is godlike, whether it be a concrete deity or not"[32] to which the individual feels impelled to respond with solemnity and gravity.[33]
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    Echoes of James' and Durkheim's definitions are to be found in the writings of, for example, Frederick Ferré who defined religion as "one's way of valuing most comprehensively and intensively".[34] Similarly, for the theologian Paul Tillich, faith is "the state of being ultimately concerned",[35] which "is itself religion. Religion is the substance, the ground, and the depth of man's spiritual life."[36] Friedrich Schleiermacher in the late 18th century defined religion as das schlechthinnige Abhängigkeitsgefühl, commonly translated as "a feeling of absolute dependence".[37] His contemporary Hegel disagreed thoroughly, defining religion as "the Divine Spirit becoming conscious of Himself through the finite spirit."[38]
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    When religion is seen in terms of "sacred", "divine", intensive "valuing", or "ultimate concern", then it is possible to understand why scientific findings and philosophical criticisms (e.g. Richard Dawkins) do not necessarily disturb its adherents.[39]

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      n  s0 J9 y: p3 F很有意思。
  • TA的每日心情
    擦汗
    2019-6-16 23:34
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    [LV.10]大乘

    地板
    发表于 2013-9-21 03:32:45 | 显示全部楼层
    本帖最后由 冰蚁 于 2013-9-20 14:35 编辑 / h, y5 s5 o5 r5 d( e# ?5 r1 V
    水风 发表于 2013-9-20 14:24 7 K4 w: _1 h  C! c: \0 V/ T
    既然是冰姨发话,妖道破例回复一下。- E, ?0 X0 |$ g6 G& [- Y) [
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    religion其实应该翻译成宗教信仰。在这里,宗教是狭义的,而信仰是 ...
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    呃,当时爱因斯坦说上帝不掷色子那句话不就是要坚持哲学上的可知论,否定海森堡测不准原理的不可知论么。给你反而说糊涂了。
  • TA的每日心情
    擦汗
    2019-6-16 23:34
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    [LV.10]大乘

    5#
    发表于 2013-9-21 03:55:24 | 显示全部楼层
    本帖最后由 冰蚁 于 2013-9-20 15:05 编辑 5 q1 S% X& [$ q* Q# Y1 M, x; r
    水风 发表于 2013-9-20 14:38
    7 l) U/ L# ~3 l" l测不准怎么是不可知论?这个小道消息是谁说的?
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    : `: u% i* k6 j+ \虽然妖道不是学物理的,可也知道点物理八卦,且待我放狗 ...
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    不是这样的。爱因斯坦本身的贡献,如光电效应是量子的东西。他也是量子力学的先驱之一。但之后由于相对论的研究,他逐渐走到量子力学的反面。因为当时根据量子力学理论的随机性得出的 non-local 性质与相对论冲突。他就质疑这个东西,说出上帝不掷骰子的话。他同时认为量子力学在其范围内是个成功理论,但不过是个过渡理论。以后会有新的统一理论来取代。上帝在这里是指放之全宇宙的终极 physics law。整句话是一个很严肃的物理讨论啊。
  • TA的每日心情
    擦汗
    2019-6-16 23:34
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    [LV.10]大乘

    6#
    发表于 2013-9-21 04:13:17 | 显示全部楼层
    本帖最后由 冰蚁 于 2013-9-20 15:15 编辑
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    水风 发表于 2013-9-20 14:58 3 H6 ?. x& i' H3 n! X: U5 |1 d
    你就欺负我不是学物理的。二当家的,上来给俺们讲讲,冰姨说得到底对不对?@不爱吱声   ...
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    另外一个注脚就是爱因斯坦自己在另外的信里说的话,
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    It seems hard to sneak a look at God's cards. But that He plays dice and uses "telepathic" methods... is something that I cannot believe for a single moment.
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    dice 就是说量子理论的随机性。 telepathic method 就是在说 non-local 或者说超距作用。这两个东西一直困扰爱因斯坦一生。他当时没法统一起来。他要完成的就是一个大一统理论。这个今天物理学家们还在继续研究。
  • TA的每日心情
    擦汗
    2019-6-16 23:34
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    [LV.10]大乘

    7#
    发表于 2013-9-21 04:24:30 | 显示全部楼层
    本帖最后由 冰蚁 于 2013-9-20 15:27 编辑 , k+ P) x+ }: W: q
    水风 发表于 2013-9-20 15:21
    : y% O0 P. n7 J0 i- _) K$ i前面的我都赞同,最后一句我很赞同。  k) B2 Q7 E7 s7 u
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    但好像本来是要讨论爱因斯坦的信仰究竟是不是唯心的问题, ...
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    ; P2 n8 x  q8 R: p, ~8 K" n- ~* E6 m9 e这个不能算唯心吧。爱因斯坦又没有否定量子力学。他认为量子力学如同牛顿力学一样在其适用范围内是对的。他要做得是统一场论。你要说他唯心,那今天在研究统一场的物理学家们那就都唯心了。爱因斯坦对用简洁优美的数学表达宇宙终极physics law 的信仰也算是今天很多物理学家的 religion 。
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  • TA的每日心情
    擦汗
    2019-6-16 23:34
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    [LV.10]大乘

    8#
    发表于 2013-9-21 04:40:05 | 显示全部楼层
    水风 发表于 2013-9-20 15:32
    8 J2 }4 q$ _1 u: c, V: Y7 b$ a好了,我认为你说的有道理,
    : M# `9 F; ]3 f/ c5 e3 A* J但是离说服我好像还有距离。

    1 P3 b2 O, E: A' E" C/ _哈哈,其实哪样都无所谓,只要不象楼主文里最后把科学/宗教的摆一起。爱因斯坦的上帝可不是佛祖,基督。; R, A7 K! u. {& ^7 [1 s

    " V4 ~6 c' [7 r  {1 O+ ]: Y, G对了,好声音出来了,网上可看廖。9 ^9 |3 W: J/ m7 J5 M5 k& j- U6 f
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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d ... jUbwmkLfxy6D9WKPdsk

    点评

    谢了。  发表于 2013-9-21 04:43
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    擦汗
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    [LV.10]大乘

    9#
    发表于 2013-10-12 10:08:53 | 显示全部楼层
    本帖最后由 冰蚁 于 2013-10-11 21:12 编辑
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    风云际会 发表于 2013-10-11 14:30 1 d( @" s6 ]( f  c
    是的。不应当狭义的理解Einstein的宗教观。
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    7 B' l  a1 B3 g1 n$ N确切讲,爱因斯坦的信仰。宗教在汉语里是有特定含义的。科学和宗教应该严格区分,即使为了要批评过分的物欲,也不应混为一谈,对建立科学观毫无帮助,反而起来混淆视听的作用。但“信仰”这个词就比较准确。科学与信仰不矛盾。但科学与宗教并不相辅相成。

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