晨枫 发表于 2015-2-20 13:33
答应了全部条件吗？我只看到报道达成协议，但没提条件的事。要是答应全部条件，齐普拉斯怎么混？怕要被“ ...
条件是希腊星期一提交财政改革方案，欧盟星期二的审议能通过。四个月还是水刑思路，能还IMF的债，在ECB债到期前停止{:187:}
本帖最后由 洗心 于 2015-2-21 05:49 编辑
晨枫 发表于 2015-2-21 05:33
答应了全部条件吗？我只看到报道达成协议，但没提条件的事。要是答应全部条件，齐普拉斯怎么混？怕要被“ ...
我也还没有看到全部协议。看到德国之声经济部的张丹红在微薄上说的。 同一条微薄下有人评论
metamodel：希腊惨败，除了4个月展期，剩下什么都没得到。不能撤销改革措施，而这些改革措施要先经过德国人首肯；保证满足债权人的要求。齐普拉斯放弃了竞选承诺，他以及他所在的党在国内政治上危险了。
另外， 据明镜在线民调,56%的德国人认为希腊早该退出欧元区;10%认为应当给希腊左翼政府一个机会,继续帮助希腊;34%的德国人主张再给希腊几十个亿,仁至义尽,但假如希腊钱花光了,又伸手要,就绝对不给了。
都说秦统一伟大，秦其实没整合好国家。接下来汉整合关中中原江淮四川花了很大的功夫，其他岭南，湖广，西域，云贵，东北等等，都是以后2000年里慢慢完成整合的，有的地方到现在还没整合好呢。欧洲人算先进点，也不可能一蹴而就，总得做个长远打算，起码3代人。欧盟，欧元的摊子一开始就是摊子铺得太大了，先德法荷比卢几国把基础打扎实了，再把意大利，西班牙等等给整合进来，希腊这种，该等第三，第四轮整合的时候再说。
现在又是第一次全球化，肯定问题得大暴露一下，再螺旋上升。
本帖最后由 晨枫 于 2015-2-20 16:23 编辑
holycow 发表于 2015-2-20 15:39
条件是希腊星期一提交财政改革方案，欧盟星期二的审议能通过。四个月还是水刑思路，能还IMF的债，在ECB债 ...
那也得对改革方案草案已经基本同意，而不是blue sky改革方案吧。6个月缩短到4个月，还是不给太多讨价还价的时间。希腊还是在惦记“新协议”，齐普拉斯怕是要坐腊。接下来希腊街头示威怕是要同时针对德国和齐普拉斯了。
李根 发表于 2015-2-21 04:35
德国真是可怜，自己勤扒苦做，内要养土耳其人穆斯林，外要养希腊欧猪各国，还要被美国驻扎十几个基地，首相 ...
大部份土鸡人在德国还是不错的。做的都是些脏活累活。比法国的穆斯林听话多了。
洗心 发表于 2015-2-20 13:47
我也还没有看到全部协议。看到德国之声经济部的张丹红在微薄上说的。 同一条微薄下有人评论
metamodel： ...
越看越像是欧盟来不及在星期五谈妥所有条件，为了避免金融市场恐慌和希腊发生挤兑而先把谈妥的部分发一个公报出来，谈不妥的部分可以多两天时间。
糊里糊涂 发表于 2015-2-21 06:17
都说秦统一伟大，秦其实没整合好国家。接下来汉整合关中中原江淮四川花了很大的功夫，其他岭南，湖广，西域 ...
有道理。不过这也比二战花的代价小很多。既然上船了,大家就共济吧。
本帖最后由 holycow 于 2015-2-20 15:28 编辑
晨枫 发表于 2015-2-20 14:20
那也得对改革方案草案已经基本同意，而不是blue sky改革方案吧。6个月缩短到4个月，还是不给太多讨价还价 ...
The Eurogroup reiterates its appreciation for the remarkable adjustment efforts undertaken by Greece and the Greek people over the last years. During the last few weeks, we have, together with the institutions, engaged in an intensive and constructive dialogue with the new Greek authorities and reached common ground today.
The Eurogroup notes, in the framework of the existing arrangement, the request from the Greek authorities for an extension of the Master Financial Assistance Facility Agreement (MFFA), which is underpinned by a set of commitments. The purpose of the extension is the successful completion of the review on the basis of the conditions in the current arrangement, making best use of the given flexibility which will be considered jointly with the Greek authorities and the institutions. This extension would also bridge the time for discussions on a possible follow-up arrangement between the Eurogroup, the institutions and Greece.
The Greek authorities will present a first list of reform measures, based on the current arrangement, by the end of Monday February 23. The institutions will provide a first view whether this is sufficiently comprehensive to be a valid starting point for a successful conclusion of the review. This list will be further specified and then agreed with the institutions by the end of April.
Only approval of the conclusion of the review of the extended arrangement by the institutions in turn will allow for any disbursement of the outstanding tranche of the current EFSF programme and the transfer of the 2014 SMP profits. Both are again subject to approval by the Eurogroup.
比选举前还不如
In view of the assessment of the institutions the Eurogroup agrees that the funds, so far available in the HFSF buffer, should be held by the EFSF, free of third party rights for the duration of the MFFA extension. The funds continue to be available for the duration of the MFFA extension and can only be used for bank recapitalisation and resolution costs. They will only be released on request by the ECB/SSM.
In this light, we welcome the commitment by the Greek authorities to work in close agreement with European and international institutions and partners. Against this background we recall the independence of the European Central Bank. We also agreed that the IMF would continue to play its role.
三驾马车是打不跑的
The Greek authorities have expressed their strong commitment to a broader and deeper structural reform process aimed at durably improving growth and employment prospects, ensuring stability and resilience of the financial sector and enhancing social fairness. The authorities commit to implementing long overdue reforms to tackle corruption and tax evasion, and improving the efficiency of the public sector. In this context, the Greek authorities undertake to make best use of the continued provision of technical assistance.
The Greek authorities reiterate their unequivocal commitment to honour their financial obligations to all their creditors fully and timely.
想开倒车是没门的
The Greek authorities have also committed to ensure the appropriate primary fiscal surpluses or financing proceeds required to guarantee debt sustainability in line with the November 2012 Eurogroup statement. The institutions will, for the 2015 primary surplus target, take the economic circumstances in 2015 into account.
但是2015年的财政盈余好商量
In light of these commitments, we welcome that in a number of areas the Greek policy priorities can contribute to a strengthening and better implementation of the current arrangement. The Greek authorities commit to refrain from any rollback of measures and unilateral changes to the policies and structural reforms that would negatively impact fiscal targets, economic recovery or financial stability, as assessed by the institutions.
在达到目标的前提下，具体怎么搞你们有一些自由
On the basis of the request, the commitments by the Greek authorities, the advice of the institutions, and today's agreement, we will launch the national procedures with a view to reaching a final decision on the extension of the current EFSF Master Financial Assistance Facility Agreement for up to four months by the EFSF Board of Directors. We also invite the institutions and the Greek authorities to resume immediately the work that would allow the successful conclusion of the review.
We remain committed to provide adequate support to Greece until it has regained full market access as long as it honours its commitments within the agreed framework.
所以，蓝字就是齐普拉斯可以向国内交差的肉骨头
holycow 发表于 2015-2-20 17:23
The Eurogroup reiterates its appreciation for the remarkable adjustment efforts undertaken by Gree ...
这希腊是基本上缴械投降了。蓝字部分怕是不好交账。不过齐普拉斯也没有办法了，Voting for the moon being made of cheese does not make it so。
holycow 发表于 2015-2-20 16:23
越看越像是欧盟来不及在星期五谈妥所有条件，为了避免金融市场恐慌和希腊发生挤兑而先把谈妥的部分发一个 ...
看来大头还是谈妥了的。就看这两天雅典街头反应了。
晨枫 发表于 2015-2-20 16:21
这希腊是基本上缴械投降了。蓝字部分怕是不好交账。不过齐普拉斯也没有办法了，Voting for the moon bein ...
本来手里就没有枪，也就无所谓缴械。自杀炸弹也要有引爆的勇气才行{:206:}
holycow 发表于 2015-2-20 18:33
本来手里就没有枪，也就无所谓缴械。自杀炸弹也要有引爆的勇气才行 ...
希腊人：谁说我们没有枪！大老爷没有一杆枪，那还叫大老爷吗？{:192:}
晨枫 发表于 2015-2-20 19:48
希腊人：谁说我们没有枪！大老爷没有一杆枪，那还叫大老爷吗？
烟枪可以有，机关枪真心没有。{:197:}
尼玛全欧洲用统一欧元固然对德国利益最大，然而假如全欧洲用统一德国马克对德国利益岂不是更大？
我要是默克尔，干脆整个巴巴罗刹计划出来，你丫希腊不听话了，那就滚出欧元区。欧猪其他四国撑不住了？那就都给我一起滚。剩下我们德法一起玩。法国不想陪练了？那就欧元区扯呼去球。
我大德国能源上背靠大罗刹，海外市场上一靠白头鹰，二靠小白兔。依靠这两大稳定器，其他欧洲猪也好，牛也好，有种你跟我大德国玩制造业，你能玩死我算你本事，你玩不死我还不得用我大德国马克？！德国马克一统欧盟，小伙伴们有意见吗？
当然这也是TG最喜闻乐见的。“于是纵散约败，争割地而赂秦，秦有余力而制其弊，追亡逐北，伏尸百万，流血飘橹。因利乘便，宰割天下，分裂河山。强国请服，弱国入朝。 ”
当然，TG明面上暂时不敢搞这么大动作，不过私下里YY一下总可以吧？
呵呵
晨枫 发表于 2015-2-21 05:31
哈哈，“希腊原来也有不少轻重工业”，这比较扯了。我去过希腊，连农业都不怎么见到，别说轻重工业了。还 ...
我觉得是全球化的问题。他们说的肯定是很多年前的事情，70年代希腊应该还造汽车吧。现在全球化可能弄得造个罐头都不一定有厂了。全球化或者即便是欧洲一体化，给消费者带来的红利大家都喜欢，但是产业工人们就可能要集中到一个地方去（这地方未必是你的国家），而且要被训练得符合资本主义的要求，也就是像中国人、德国人那样吃苦耐劳。
李根 发表于 2015-2-21 04:35
德国真是可怜，自己勤扒苦做，内要养土耳其人穆斯林，外要养希腊欧猪各国，还要被美国驻扎十几个基地，首相 ...
所以公平最重要！脱离了公平，就会升米恩斗米仇。
晨枫 发表于 2015-2-21 05:33
答应了全部条件吗？我只看到报道达成协议，但没提条件的事。要是答应全部条件，齐普拉斯怎么混？怕要被“ ...
现在由不得希腊。今年欧洲股市应该是一旦有反弹就可以short一把。平稳了就可以卖了。
料理鼠王 发表于 2015-2-20 08:47
由俭入奢易，由奢入俭难。
这种传统智慧，是民主社会理解不了的，大家都是为了眼前利益投票。 ...
和民主集权无关，哪国都如此，比如我国。
晨枫 发表于 2015-2-21 05:31
哈哈，“希腊原来也有不少轻重工业”，这比较扯了。我去过希腊，连农业都不怎么见到，别说轻重工业了。还 ...
练武功不易，自废武功容易得很。{:9_301:}
当年还有娶肯尼迪遗孀的希腊船王呢，如果希腊像今天这么发展无烟工业，船王靠啥吃饭呢？